Smoke (Alton Brown)

[1buckie]

If a grill stained with hickory smoke is wrong, I don't want to be right. 
;-)

Amen Brother!

Hey Guys.....not bashing a good hickory smoke, but I've seen more than once, someone try out over-smoked or ill-smoked hickory & be turned off of smoked foods for awhile, maybe longer.....

But if someone's just starting to use wood flavoring, I was thinking this ~~>

" Hickory is also fairly heavy, maybe try cherry or apple to start with....they're lighter in flavor & will  get you into the game a little easier without going overboard..........i'd hate to see you shy away from a whole 'nuther aspect of things from one or two bad experiences........"

I like a good strong smoke flavor, including Black Walnut, which is real strong.............
I can also put the skin back on skinless chicken with oak......

[HankB]

I like a good strong smoke flavor, including Black Walnut, which is real strong.............
I can also put the skin back on skinless chicken with oak......

Interesting that you found Black Walnut strong. I found it mild.

Other mild woods include oak and maple. Around here there is a lot of Box Elder which is actually a maple. I have used it.

[1buckie]

The black walnut that grows around here is intense, esp. if it's fairly fresh....the stuff I have is approx. 13 yrs. old....I just cut down into the core of it to get 'clean' wood & it's still fairly strong.......

[TheFinkFarm]

If a grill stained with hickory smoke is wrong, I don't want to be right. 
;-)

Amen Brother!

Hey Guys.....not bashing a good hickory smoke, but I've seen more than once, someone try out over-smoked or ill-smoked hickory & be turned off of smoked foods for awhile, maybe longer.....

But if someone's just starting to use wood flavoring, I was thinking this ~~>

" Hickory is also fairly heavy, maybe try cherry or apple to start with....they're lighter in flavor & will  get you into the game a little easier without going overboard..........i'd hate to see you shy away from a whole 'nuther aspect of things from one or two bad experiences........"

I like a good strong smoke flavor, including Black Walnut, which is real strong.............
I can also put the skin back on skinless chicken with oak......

Well Buckie, out here Hickory is plentiful.  It used to be utilized in making furniture (when we had a furniture industry in NC).  Now hickory is plentiful in my woods and I use it to heat my house (wood stove). I use it to cook with also.  You got to remember, a lot of the cooking we do with hickory is we use the coals.  Burn the hickory in a burn barrel, shovel the burning coals into the bottom of the cooker, and go whole hog.
Growing up (for the most part) in this region, I have had that hickory smoke and flavor so many times I would not know what to do without it.  Guess it's in my blood now.
I use other wood also, apple, oak, maple, cherry and pecan.  I use what I cut.  I'm an environmentalist. No waste....
Now black walnut, I don't think I could use that.  Would I try it? Sure, why not. 
I have heard of people using cedar.  I don't think I'm gonna try that one.
KCSO,,, Keep Calm and Smoke On... 

[1buckie]

Fink !!!!

Great to see you !!!!!!

Absolutely nothing against hickory, like I said....1st "smoked" anything I can remember was some hickory smoked cheddar, I think from Knott's Berry Farm, by Disneyland.....LOVED IT !!!!

It's just that throwing on chips & chunks, not being quite like the burnt down coals, may go overboard for someone just getting their sea legs......


PS: the last butt I did with black walnut came out completely pink all the way thru & tasted GREAT !!!!!

[MaxBobcat]

Well, just watched the episode.

Good overall, but like others, I always get a little turned off when I hear anybody talk about hard and fast rules in BBQ.  Anybody ever read the low and slow book by gary wiviote?  same thing.  rubs me the wrong way...ive eaten briskets cooked at 375 over kingsford that were fantastic, as well as briskets cooked at 220 over post oak for 18 hours.  more than one way to get good Q.

[mike.stavlund]

Right on, Fink.  I got the hickory bug from eating with my wife's family in Tennessee, and have a nice stash of hickory from their property.  It does have some serious flavor, but I don't find it to be off-putting in proper proportion.  In fact, I normally prefer apple for poultry, but I'm out and so used hickory to smoke a chicken this afternoon.  It was amazing:  subtle smoke notes and a little sweet. 

[Heyjude]

If a grill stained with hickory smoke is wrong, I don't want to be right. 

;-)

But if I somehow felt...compelled to try , is baking soda ok for plated grates and the inside of the lid?

If you really want to clean an almost new grill.
Get some Dawn and an SOS or 0000 steel wool... Scrub and rinse. If its not clean like new, you may have to get some Easy Off oven cleaner. Just rinse it really well. Make a small fire to really burn and dry it out. I doubt any residule smoke will affect future cooks. Weber are impervious! 

[sunsanvil]

Ok...so I'm still a little at odds with his discourse in the video about "invisible smoke: Good  / Visible smoke: bad".  Been experimenting and even just a pinch of soaked hickory chips produces very visible smoke.

[1buckie]

If you have chips already, try not soaking.....wrap them in a double thickness foil pouch, maybe 5 x7 inches & poke 3~4 small holes in it after wrapping it up.....flat pouch......lay on good, hot coals & it should smoke for 20 minutes or so.....try maybe 2 or 3 pouches during your cookup & see where your smoke flavor ends up.....adjust accordingly from there.....

I like small chunked wood, lasts a bit longer......I'm in the "no soak" camp.....believe the fire just has to work harder to burn off moisture before doing the same thing it was going to do anyway......

[addicted-to-smoke]

Ok...so I'm still a little at odds with his discourse in the video about "invisible smoke: Good  / Visible smoke: bad".  Been experimenting and even just a pinch of soaked hickory chips produces very visible smoke.

Don't be mislead into thinking that just because it happens on your consumer grill and nobody died that day means it's safe. As he says in the video, the invisible and the visible smoke are actually made up of different things, tar and PAHs etc. in the latter --- visible smoke isn't "just more smoke." Extra heat turns it into something cancerous and this is known, not a guess.

As Buckie says, wrap that stuff in foil. This slows down it's burn. Poke holes so that it can burn or release a little smoke. The other stuff like metal smoke boxes or smoke trays do a similar function of shielding the wood from a direct burn. Even the bigger pieces Buckie uses won't burn as fast.

Regarding wet wood, too-fresh wood, soaked wood: the reason it's more susceptible to heavier smoking is because this creates steam, and smoke that you can readily see is more made up of suspended droplets of moisture. This is how and why smoke is a colloid: "A colloid is a substance microscopically dispersed throughout another substance."

So smoke is [stuff] dispersed with water's help, but a big part of what you see as "smoke" is just the moisture. The burnt particles are essentially microscopic and so it take a lot of it to become visible. Fascinating shit when you think about it.

To disperse more water you need more heat, both of which create visible and badder smoke. It's a 1-2 punch to your health. That last part is why he says avoid mesquite >> it burns hot, too hot, and gives off more bad smoke.

****************
Related to that are the stories that got published starting around 10 years ago that warned against cooking fatty meat on direct, high heat. The fat drips down on hot coals and creates a lot of smoke with not just PAHs but HCAs too. Burning animal fat isn't good when deposited back onto the meat in burnt vapor form.

You can however scrape/peel off the black from a burned hot dog or peel off burned chicken skin, and you should. If that stuff tastes like tar it's because it is!

[sunsanvil]

Maybe I worded that wrong.  I buy every word he said which is why I'm a bit concerned when I see smoke now.  I'm just trying to understand why, so far, I can only seem to get bad smoke out of my hickory chips.  I like to approach things like this analytically.

Is it simply that they are getting too hot?  If so putting them "on the coals" seems like the worst instructions a package could give.

I'll try the tin foil wrap next time.

[1buckie]

"I like to approach things like this analytically."
                                ~~~> sunsanvil


Well....OK !!!!



A small, hot, clean burning fire is what you aim for......you cannot avoid smoke from burning wood entirely, it's what burning wood does.....

Burning chips on a hot fire will burn them up quickly, hence the smoker box, or foil packet to slow down the consumption.....it may easily be that what you're concerned about (the visible smoke) would be compounded by smouldering in a pouch or box.....it creates a dilemma that we'll try to solve......

An example:

When I do long smokes, 11~15 hours & line up the coals & wood chunks like so ~~>





It will burn around the ring, charcoal lighting charcoal, until it hits a piece of wood.....



All of the above cookers are lit, 5 in a row, see where a couple are puffing smoke, that's ones that have currently hit the wood chunk.....
It will smoulder some, for a few minutes, but if I've done my job in lining up the original setup, will soon go thin blue to almost none at all........AT THAT POINT, it's still burning wood & adding smoke flavor to the food, just that it's burning nice & clean....
I learned some of this from having been around wood burning stoves at various times & learned about the intakle's effect on getting a small heater stove to heat a room all night long, maybe adding wood once.....

Here's a photo I borrowed from Alien BBQ of Roswell, NM that shows very clearly the difference between white & blue ~~>



The link to a good display of info on some of this, I found (same place as above photo ^^)
here:

http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11458

And also here:

http://www.thesmokering.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17614&sid=d241947886c7cbd97895ab49a46abc48

A lot of what they're talking about in those links is OFFSET smokers, but quite a few of the principles still apply....my particular "dog & pony show" is to find more & more refined ways to replicate this on a Weber.....kettle, in particular............Golly & in particular Hogsy from Austalia have fixed up setups to do things I've never even thought of....as have others both here & on other forums.....
On an offset cooker a recommendation I see quite a lot is to pre-heat the wood splits on TOP of the firebox & as those pre-heated pieces go in, set a few more on top to pre-heat...Why?
To get them closer to the temprature they'll burn at & REDUCE the amout of puffy white "catch" or start-up smoke......
I accomplish this by setting the chunks around the ring, sort of evenly spaced & as the charcoal burns up to the chunk, it pre-heats it to some extent......reduces the smouldery burn time......if doing a short, quick cook, but maybe wanting extra smoke flavor, just will set a few blocks on the lid of the kettle, while the 1st batch is burning.... 

This cook shows some decent shots of that  happening....keep in mind, in order to takes pictures, the lid is open & there's a rush of oxygen at that point.....

http://weberkettleclub.com/forums/food-pr0n/bob's-beef-o-rama/
   

Numerous people here & abroad ( other forums & continents) have Weber Smokey Moutain Cookers that do this, generally lower heat thing pretty well, some have offset cookers & swear by those also.....
They're all useable cookers, if you pay attention to the fire / heat source & get to learning what each cooker will do well & it's pitfalls.....

Back to the kettle, tho.....
if you use foil packet or a smoker cast  iron / steel box, it will allow less smoke at a time.....
IT STILL needs to work with a smaller-than-you-think-hot-burning-fire.....it does take some practice.....
Examples....
Chicken I run at a higher than most other items heat....it gets cooked thru better & stays juicier
( let's leave out brining & marinating, for the moment) AND poultry will take on smoke much more quickly than a lot of other foods...... a couple small or med. chunks for say, a batch of chicken breast or thighs is plenty, others may like more, but that's what I've found....equivalent might be one big pouch of chip......

Ground meats...meatloaf & fatties & such....will take on smoke also faster than other items....last meatloafs I did were small individual sized & I just threw a handful of hickory chips on, dry & loose,
twice.....they were also ground turkey, so had to be careful to not go overboard......
Cooking.....note the bluish smoke, running at just over 300 degrees for this....


Finished shot.....


A large part of the reddish color is smoke.....this was a throwndown run-off, so I was out for blood........game face get-up ~~>




So.....before I get too far off track..... .................

The larger cuts & esp. beef items, can take an extra load of smoke & still be OK.....it's a more stout & heavier flavor than say, fish of some type, which is mostly pretty delicate & can go usually lighter............


What does all this mean in reguard to the 1st statement up above:
"Burning chips on a hot fire will burn them up quickly, hence the smoker box, or foil packet to slow down the consumption.....it may easily be that what you're concerned about (the visible smoke) would be compounded by smouldering in a pouch or box.....it creates a dilemma that we'll try to solve......"

Keep the fire as small & hot as you can, thereby keeping the wood burning as cleanly as is possible under whatever current conditions you have going.....

Another thing is I've taken to thinking about "smoke" more as an added flavoring, like a rub, marinade, or injection...approaching it that way has helped in deciding how much, when, for how long, at what heat, etc.......

It is also a preservative, a way to get stuff to last longer was a large part of the original use of smoke........since we now have television, that original intent seems to get lost in the shuffle sometimes.......

This Site has an endless supply of info on traditional smoking....I've sent the Photo Gallery page (which has all sorts of setups, a lot from Europe ), but you can move around & locate all kinds of stuff on this site......

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/photos

   Another page from the site, having to do with grilling & BBQ'ing....this one tells a tale: "Smoking., very low heat....52° – 140° F(12° - 60° C)....1 hour to 2 weeks....."
   Makes me think I'm doing a disservice by calling most stuff "smoking", when it's actually BBQ......
Also contains a great tagline: "Have you ever seen people sitting around the propane grill, playing guitars and singing songs?"

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/barbecue


And here, where they talk about wet & dry wood, remember that they're also talking mostly about cured stuff like sausages & the like, but there is some good points on  soaking, wet, dry, etc......

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/meat-smoking/wood

The Smoke Ring links address the question of "green" of freshly cut wood fairly well & I'm sure there are other disscussions at BBQ Bretheren, Smoking Meat Forum, TvvvWWBb & etc......

[Tim in PA]

Buckie, you are a wealth of knowledge. I wish you lived close to me as I'd come over and try to absorb as much information from you as I possible could! You are a huge asset to this site.

[1buckie]

thanks, Tim....
I heard a speaker / presenter say one time: "I'm almost totally un-scarred by education, but I read a lot..."

I was also reading back thru A-to-Smoke's piece about health concerns......

    I've had people directly ask me NOT to cook foods (corn & such) in aluminium foil, as there's stuff that comes off of it, heated, that's not particularly healthy.......
     Me, I smoke a heck of a lot of stuff, even vegan dishes & Boca burgers ( the veg-heads go nuts for this stuff, BTW....) AND I get all my friends and relatives to eat this delishious, un-healthy crap too.....we're all goin' ta hell in a Weber kettle shaped bucket !!!!!