Weber Kettle Club Forums
Grill Talk => Weber Grill Forum (Grills, Accessories) => Topic started by: UserGone on June 29, 2017, 06:52:06 AM
-
Some here will only collect/buy near pristine condition kettles. Not every 18" avocado we find is a perfect 10.
Everything else we collect has a rating down to the craft beer we consume.
It's only time a kettle rating system should be established. A points system to help us determine any Weber kettle's condition and rarity. We know we have our own personal rating system that makes us decide to purchase or pass on a kettle even if it's a rare Boobie Pink.
I'm thinking of a 100 points system.
For example: Any standard production black kettles that are NIB can only go as high as 88 points.
If it's a colored kettle you add 1 point. Add another point if it's a rare color such as blue for a total of 90 points.
Then the rarity kettles get extra points:
-Meat cutters add 10 points
-custom by Weber add 10
-Westerner add 9
-Aristocrat add 9
-Chief add 8
-Glen Blue add 8
-chestnut Coppertone add 9
-ranger add 9
-
-
And so on, to be voted on.
This would be a poll where all members can contribute and vote on what rating system to use.
This is not a price guide, just a rating system.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Based on the thread title we shouldn't consider color or rarity. I personally would rate a NOS black A code the same as a NOS red A code. If the red had dents and lots of porcelain missing then the black would be in better condition therefore be rated higher. If you look at your proposal it's completely subjective. Rating on condition should be objective.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Nah.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
The 100 points rating works with all kettles of all colors up to the 88 points.
A perfect NIB black kettle can only get a high rating of 88 points.
A fair condition Westerner may only receive a rating of 86 points. Poor condition may place this westerner in the 70's but would still be considered collectible just because it's a westerner.
Yes the term condition and rating are different but can still be used in the same sentence to describe an item.
This is why there also needs to be a "Condition" chart rated 1-10.
C10- New and in the original box with paperwork. Can be taken out of box to be viewed. Can be assembled but must remain unused, never cooked in.
C9.5- just like new, fully assembled and without original box. Never cooked in.
C9- appears like new in overall appearance but exhibits very minor wear. Has been cooked in once or twice as they say. Must remain cleaned and degreased after use so it can be inspected.
C8- a complete kettle that has been cooked in. Signs of minor wear may be evident, minor porcelain loss to lid or bowl but otherwise very clean and well cared for. Wheels appear to look new.
C7-obviously has been used and shows general overall wear. Porcelain loss and minor crazing is readily apparent in usual areas. Minor surface rust may be evident. Bowl leg sockets have minor rust. Minor fading and wear to wheels. This grill is a cooker and shows signs of current use. Grease and grime is acceptable.
C6- evidence of heavy wear and cooking. Dents, heavy porcelain chips, heavy crazing and rust is apparent. May be missing replaceable components. May be in need of repair.
C5-
C4-
C3-
C2-
C1- even the scrap man may refuse this kettle
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
And the purpose is? You got what you got, no need to "rate" it IMHO.
-
Kettlebb is on point, docking a black from the outset is personal bias. Me? I think avocado's are ugly, especially ones with thumb screws (should such a thing exist). Therefore, if I found one that was C10, absolutely pristine NOS, , the best it would rate is a 78.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
-
My ratings are:
cooker
looker
looker cooker
-
Mine are all rated in the teens when I'm buying, 95+ when selling. Some of the Weathered Warriors we've seen out-score NIB any day in my book.
-
A Kelly blue book type scale would work decently to rate the condition of a given kettle for trading or selling purposes but I agree with the others, that color and style don't make any sense to grade on that alone.
On top of that, who cares? I enjoy the kettles with or without scars.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Black Betty is easily a 100 ….
http://weberkettleclub.com/forums/weber-kettles-accessories/black-betty-(caution-heavy-kettle-carnage!!)/
-
Bam-Ba-Lam
-
Nah.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
+1
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Bam-Ba-Lam
ughhh, the subtle song bomb
-
Bam-Ba-Lam
ughhh, the subtle song bomb
Having trouble getting that one out of your head?
-
Bam-Ba-Lam
ughhh, the subtle song bomb
Having trouble getting that one out of your head?
that song is one of those "stick around for a while" songs.
When this Epic Beard Man video went viral, the Amber Lamps meme was born, this video (and song) must have been in my head for a month.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDD9FmdmUN4
-
Waiting for all the 10-12 regulars to state their opinion. So far it sounds like you guys aren't ready for this.
Those on WKC that have a fantastic mint kettle collection know you have a similar rating system. I'd like to hear how you decide on what kettles to acquire and add to your impressive collection.
I think any Collector strives to collect the best items they can find. Some choose to be secretive by only sharing those lesser condition kettles to the public. After all we don't need to tell everyone where we are storing away our prized possession.
I'm not trying to determine a particular price range for any kettle. I Just know some kettles are highly sought after even though some may not like that particular color or pattern. And even if it's a very rare color, the condition of that rare kettle will determine if you want to pursue in acquiring it or pass on it.
On another note, Factory Weber custom kettles were only produced in limited numbers so those should receive a solid 10 points. I just realized what now is considered to be a rare Westerner was a standard catalog ordered kettle so it should only get 9 points based on rarity.
Their were probably more Aristocrats produced than Westerners so that Red 26er will receive an 8 point gain, again based on rarity.
These ratings I've suggested are not set in stone.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Bam-Ba-Lam
ughhh, the subtle song bomb
Having trouble getting that one out of your head?
that song is one of those "stick around for a while" songs.
When this Epic Beard Man video went viral, the Amber Lamps meme was born, this video (and song) must have been in my head for a month.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDD9FmdmUN4
Like "Bad Ass"!
-
a 'standardized' or at least accepted condition grading system could be a good thing - but it needs to be simple. It's been discussed a number of times over the last 5 years, but never really progressed.
Rarity and 'demand' should be ignored. Any data we have is too noisy to be reliable and the rest is an ever-changing-opinion.
-
Standardized... Agreed.
What would you propose?
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
One method would be to have two measures/scales. One would be for condition and completeness. Here, all grills would be on equal footing and a nib black kettle right from HD would rate the same as a nib NOS Galley Que if both are complete and flawless.
Next would be a rarity scale or something of the like, similar to a degree of difficulty rating in some judged sports like diving.
Total score would be some formula of the two ratings.
As for how do collectors decide, most collectors that I know cull their collections. If something pops up that they don't have, they get it, regardless of condition. When a better one pops up, they get that one then decide if they want to keep both, or if the "lesser" will be moved along.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
-
There's a show called "What's my car worth" that has a two tier rating like that. A, B, C, D for rarity or collectability, and 1,2,3,4,5 for condition. You could have a flawless black 1998 MT in black, and it could be a C1. The same year in red could be a B1. A1s would be things like NOS Westerners and the like. An A2 could be a Custom with a few chips, but all original parts. So my red Performer might be a B1. @Jeff has a Blue 26er that is off the charts. A+1+! Trouble is, there is no way to equate the rating to value. It's only ever worth what someone is wiling to pay at the time it is for sale.
Still not sure who gets to make the call, and that's the impossible part. There will never be a review board that would assess any two kettles the same. Maybe we need our own show on TV.
-
UH, to much math.
-
Here is a condition rating chart that I borrowed from a vintage toy collectible forum. I changed some of the wording to fit our needs.
It's straight forward and "only rates the better condition collectible kettles". It's simple and easy to use. These condition kettles are the ones everyone wants to add to their collection.
(M) MINT- brand new with original box and paperwork. Never been used. No damage to grill
(NM) Near MINT- appears brand new except upon close inspection. Has been cooked in once or twice. May or may not have original box.
(EX) Excellent- has minimal wear, very minor porcelain chips or rubs. A few light scratches. A grill that has been well cared for. Has been cooked in.
(VG) Very Good- defiantly cooked in. May have some Loss of color or fading. Noticeable problems with hardware or replaceable parts. Few porcelain pops and some lid rash to edge. Several scratches, some rust to leg sockets.
(G) Good- weathered or a completely weathered warrior. some lite rust, considerable wear and porcelain loss, crazing. may even have most of its original color and still appear new. The leg sockets and all handles must still be factory attached. No signs of metal repair. No re-attached leg sockets or metal handles. All original parts still intact. One or two small character dings/dents. Can be missing its original replaceable wooden or plastic handle. May Still be used daily to cook
(P) Poor- rusted off or broken off handles or leg sockets. May have metal repair/repairs. generally unacceptable except for a cooker
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
(http://pics.weberkettleclub.com/images/2017/06/29/fbd.jpg)
I have not smoked enough pot to seriously consider this. The good sativa always helps with the obscure concepts man.
-
Already too much energy is spent in hunting these kettles - now math followed by science . Oh gosh - I don't want to be in school again
Now where is that yellow ebay MBH headed is what I am interested to know
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Nice start. Would question going straight from good to poor, and/or nothing being after poor. OK, fair, piss poor, planter candidate, etc.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
-
I've always rated kettles using a binary system.
"Do I want it?" Pick one answer: FnA / HellNo.
-
To hell with a kettle rating system. All that will do is push the CL prices higher and make this a collectors market. Lets keep this a likeable mom and pop market a little bit longer before the big monied collectors come barging in and "F ing" this up.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
-
To hell with a kettle rating system. All that will do is push the CL prices higher and make this a collectors market. Lets keep this a likeable mom and pop market a little bit longer before the big monied collectors come barging in and "F ing" this up.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
+1
-
To hell with a kettle rating system. All that will do is push the CL prices higher and make this a collectors market. Lets keep this a likeable mom and pop market a little bit longer before the big monied collectors come barging in and "F ing" this up.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
+1
You think this currently isn't happening without a kettle rating score?
Their have been numerous posting on WKC in the past years about CL sellers that raised their prices based on finding WKC online. What one CL seller may refer to as "great condition" or "good condition" may really only be a "poor condition" kettle they are trying to sell.
One way to possibly eliminate those CL sellers from searching this website is to block any non-members out. ( but that has also been discussed and isn't going to happen)
The only thing left to do is to give everyone (including us) some kind of kettle condition rating scale. A guide that can easily help you determine if it's in GOOD condition or POOR condition.
We need to be tough on rating a good condition kettle. Everything else should be price accordingly and that means the excellent, mint condition and even those poor condition kettles.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Well thought out points on rating systems and historical aspects. I wish wish is was just a friendly mom and pop collecting club but that not the world we live in. Where there's a buck to be made, someone will exploit it. No sense being naive. For me it's a bit of both. I love the history around these original models and there designs. I also geek out over a true unused model with all the goodies. Basically for me it's about cooking. What the Weber kettles provides is the best charcoal grill and trying new recipes and sharing it with family and friends. Thanks for listening. Keep up the great work. Happy 4th!
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
To hell with a kettle rating system. All that will do is push the CL prices higher and make this a collectors market. Lets keep this a likeable mom and pop market a little bit longer before the big monied collectors come barging in and "F ing" this up.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
X1000.
I've only been here a few years, but I'm out when the SmokinPerformer POV becomes commonplace. No personal offense intended.
-
I don't need a rating system to tell me what condition a grill is in. I guess this would help some of the new guys or less experienced. No offense but because a grill gets rated an 88 is not going to make it anymore valuable to me. I collect grills as a hobby and it takes my mind of work. It's supposed to be fun.
-
And when I meet up with that CL seller and the bad points of that kettle have not been made known, then it is up to me to get a lower price or walk away. Case in point when I got my lime there was one pic on CL and that was from the best angle possible, when I got there and saw it was missing the back handle and a leg socket was loose I still gave the seller $40 because in the DC area these colors show up every two or three years.
So $40 for a rare color that needs some work thats a bargin in my book, and no other rare color has popped up on CL in DC since then.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
-
No offense taken.
I borrowed Under Parker's system on rating Wine. He uses a 50-100 points system on rating Wine.
Just because a Wine receives a rating of 90 points by wine critics doesn't mean it's an automatic $18 bottle of wine.
Their are many 90 point bottles of wine in the $40 price range. I also believe those high end wine makers hate and may be against Under Parker's system. This points system places wine tasting, best are the ones that score 85-95 points.
This system has helped the average person purchase a bottle of wine without making them feel they might have picked a bad tasting wine.
I see many bottles of wine from $4 to hundreds of dollars all score in the same 85-95 points. This system is not a price guide by any means.
My idea of using a 100 points system on Weber kettles would place most collectible kettles in the same 85-95 points. It doesn't make the ones that would receive a score of 50-84 not collectible or even usable.
However this 100 points idea is not in favor. So a simpler scale was suggested and no system will ever satisfy everyone.
We don't need to spend another 5 years without voting on some type of condition scale.
Waiting to here from more members that only collect excellent or better condition kettles.
My 2cent opinion: Even if We never post prices we paid for kettles. Stick to only posting photos and talk about how great these Weber grills are. Share recipes and those postings on how to cook threads. Only stick to the history and historical events about these great grills. Eliminate the WKC market place and go underground when selling or trading kettles. Stop posting about the $10 garage sale FINDS followed by the numerous " you stole that one" postings.
CL sellers will still do a basic online search when they receive numerous replies on the $50 charcoal grill listing they have. Then they will find this small online gathering of Weber Kettle collectors. They will page through the threads and find no such mentioning of any prices or condition rating system. They will only see a small gathering of happy wholesome people collecting a random odd item living in harmony like the Smurfs, singing La la- la la la la, La la la- la la. They will see our pictures of shiny kettles posing in our backyards by the numbers and all colors.
You still think those CL sellers will still keep that good condition Westerner or Glen Blue listed at $50?
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
I think you are talking about Robert Parker and I do collect most excellent Kettles.....here hear.
-
(VG) Very Good- defiantly cooked in.
I don't always cook with defiance, but when I do it's usually very good, sometimes even excellent.
-
(VG) Very Good- defiantly cooked in.
I don't always cook with defiance, but when I do it's usually very good, sometimes even excellent.
Ha ha. That's awesome.
I personally have no interest in a rating system for two reasons.
First, no matter how objective we might make it, there's a lot of opinion and personal taste that will weigh in.
Secondly, all mine are cookers for the joy the process brings. I'm the guy that would probably use the original box to light the chimney of charcoal.
Cook with Defiance!!!!
I appreciate the desire to quantify a kettle's condition with a rating system.
Whit
-
(http://pics.weberkettleclub.com/images/2017/06/29/fbd.jpg)
I have not smoked enough pot to seriously consider this. The good sativa always helps with the obscure concepts man.
Mr Hoss,, Puff, Puff,,,,,,,Pass
-
Just be sure to pass it to the left because the right is always wrong.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I'm kind of confused as to when it was decided that a rating system was needed. I mean, it's one thing to suggest that it might be a good idea, but it's a whole nether kettle of fish to say that one is needed and that the world would seemingly end if another 5 years went by without some kind of vote on scale.
For, to say that we don't need to wait t years to vote on a scale wrongly presupposes that one is either needed or wanted either by the community at large, or the owners / founders.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
-
Why fix what aint broken.The only personal gain I see out of this is to start up a WKC price guide. We'll see.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
-
A kettle rating scale sounds is a lot of work to standardize and too objective to be universal. For example, I don't place much value on patina and I don't keep colored grills with lid chips larger than a dime. That works for me but many others don't feel that way. Pictures speak louder than words, anyway. It seems like the end goal for doing this would be to place a value on kettles. The uncommon kettles generally have predictable values (and I definitely have my own free market kettle blue book in my head) but the truly rare kettles are wild cards without historical data to reference against.
-
So far their are some Great comments on this post. I'm not surprised to read that most of them are against having some kind of a kettle condition scale since one hasn't been established yet. My purpose in bringing up this conversation was not to establish a price guide, it was to make everyone think about the idea of a simple condition chart. If this topic makes you think and opens up conversations at the next WKC meet whether negative or not, then it was worth mentioning it here. It just keeps the ball rolling down the years to come and maybe one day the momentum will stop and it will be forgotten or established.
Everyone of use have our own unique system in place when rating a kettle. I do like the simple rating system that was recommended, cooker, looker, looker/cooker. That system seams to be the most mentioned and accepted way when describing a kettle on past post.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Here's the thing..... Not everyone will have the same standards/rating system no matter what. My "8/10" might be someone else's "5/10". People have different ideas about what is in "very good condition" vs "okay condition" etc.... I use the "Looker, Cooker, or Cooker-Looker" rating system. Then I also have MY personal scale of 1-10. I'm also not above some chips or dings especially if its on a vintage rare colored Kettle. Having said that, I know there are a growing number of members here that WILL NOT ACCEPT chips of any kind or find a rougher one first then trade up to a nicer one.<< That used to be more prevalent in the early days of this hobby. Something I still do but it's all ones prerogative. I own kettles from NOS to beater patina. I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity Grillfella. Just my .02
-
Here's the thing..... Not everyone will have the same standards/rating system no matter what. My "8/10" might be someone else's "5/10". People have different ideas about what is in "very good condition" vs "okay condition" etc.... I use the "Looker, Cooker, or Cooker-Looker" rating system. Then I also have MY personal scale of 1-10. I'm also not above some chips or dings especially if its on a vintage rare colored Kettle. Having said that, I know there are a growing number of members here that WILL NOT ACCEPT chips of any kind or find a rougher one first then trade up to a nicer one.<< That used to be more prevalent in the early days of this hobby. Something I still do but it's all ones prerogative. I own kettles from NOS to beater patina. I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity Grillfella. Just my .02
A California 4 grill is an Omaha 9 grill. LOL.
-
Here's the thing..... Not everyone will have the same standards/rating system no matter what. My "8/10" might be someone else's "5/10". People have different ideas about what is in "very good condition" vs "okay condition" etc.... I use the "Looker, Cooker, or Cooker-Looker" rating system. Then I also have MY personal scale of 1-10. I'm also not above some chips or dings especially if its on a vintage rare colored Kettle. Having said that, I know there are a growing number of members here that WILL NOT ACCEPT chips of any kind or find a rougher one first then trade up to a nicer one.<< That used to be more prevalent in the early days of this hobby. Something I still do but it's all ones prerogative. I own kettles from NOS to beater patina. I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity Grillfella. Just my .02
A California 4 grill is an Omaha 9 grill. LOL.
Gumms got jokes!
Holy Grail: 1960s Glen Blue 22 aka The Imperial.
-
I have been lucky enough to acquire mostly nice condition kettles. Personally, I just go for what I want no matter what the condition. To Me, it is all about rescuing and enjoy using them knowing the history of these kettles. We don't get much rare kettles here but anything interesting in any condition is ok by me.
I love seeing these cool kettles pop up ( latest example- MLH Glen blue for $5 score by one of the member). Not often for these kettles but we all see them come up for sale cheap or for free all the time. In most all cases, any cool vintage kettles can be had for reasonable $.
It is unrealistic to rate kettles and see no point in doing so, but when that day comes and greed sets in with really high asking prices.... I am out.
Just remember, outside of us kettle heads.... no one is interested in these kettles no matter how special....until they find out they can charge lot more because we kettle head said so. We can't stop this from happening but at same time no need to promote driving the prices up.
To me, anything with logo is out.... for some, they only collect logo kettle. I love Cado kettles, some of you hate avocado colors. There is no way to quantify and rate kettles. Even if you can... why would you.
-
To hell with a kettle rating system. All that will do is push the CL prices higher and make this a collectors market. Lets keep this a likeable mom and pop market a little bit longer before the big monied collectors come barging in and "F ing" this up.
Sent from my SM-J700P using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=91018)
That's all this is is someones way to try to make more money, who cares, what rating an old BBQ has? If you like it, buy it. Profit isn't my main interest here so this bores me to death.....
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
-
If this is the case on a scale of 1-100 mine are 40...combined.
Sent from my iPhone using Weber Kettle Club mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=91018)
-
Here's the thing..... Not everyone will have the same standards/rating system no matter what. My "8/10" might be someone else's "5/10". People have different ideas about what is in "very good condition" vs "okay condition" etc.... I use the "Looker, Cooker, or Cooker-Looker" rating system. Then I also have MY personal scale of 1-10. I'm also not above some chips or dings especially if its on a vintage rare colored Kettle. Having said that, I know there are a growing number of members here that WILL NOT ACCEPT chips of any kind or find a rougher one first then trade up to a nicer one.<< That used to be more prevalent in the early days of this hobby. Something I still do but it's all ones prerogative. I own kettles from NOS to beater patina. I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity Grillfella. Just my .02
A California 4 grill is an Omaha 9 grill. LOL.
Awwwwww
All the SWEET GRILLS are in california, right Craig?
-
Didn't the Beach Boys do a song about California Grills
-
My ratings are:
cooker
looker
looker cooker
+1
This pretty much sums it up for me. Mine are all pretty much cookers.
-
Here's the thing..... Not everyone will have the same standards/rating system no matter what. My "8/10" might be someone else's "5/10". People have different ideas about what is in "very good condition" vs "okay condition" etc.... I use the "Looker, Cooker, or Cooker-Looker" rating system. Then I also have MY personal scale of 1-10. I'm also not above some chips or dings especially if its on a vintage rare colored Kettle. Having said that, I know there are a growing number of members here that WILL NOT ACCEPT chips of any kind or find a rougher one first then trade up to a nicer one.<< That used to be more prevalent in the early days of this hobby. Something I still do but it's all ones prerogative. I own kettles from NOS to beater patina. I like to think of myself as an equal opportunity Grillfella. Just my .02
A California 4 grill is an Omaha 9 grill. LOL.
Awwwwww
All the SWEET GRILLS are in california, right Craig?
The Chicagoland Wood Dale's really make ME feel all right.
But yes, Troy only the "sweet grills" come from Cali......
I wish they all could be California...........GRIILLLLLLLLS!
Holy Grail: 1960s Glen Blue 22 aka The Imperial.