Weber Kettle Club Forums
Grill Talk => Weber Grill Forum (Grills, Accessories) => Topic started by: Idahawk on January 12, 2015, 08:19:20 AM
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I managed to come across a man who was at Weber from 1955 to 1959
His father who was also at Weber at the time pictured here on the left along side George was the President.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/b4ea440327b6aad03d44a4ffd3986d64.jpg)
Photo 1953-54 International Housewares Expo Chicago
He was able to explain to me the early history of the kettles and one specific question I had was about the ash pans .
He stated that this style was in use when he arrived in 55 , and that they were made in house on a brake press a simple process
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/f066942ee1b5cff569428db221d52630.jpg)
He left the company in 1959 and had not seen this style while he was there
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/12/ff1e901a4004de80ca4b52a23a914a9a.jpg)
He explained that these were drawn and the company wasn't set up for drawing then and that style had came along after his time, post 59'
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Just an amazing story Idahawk - I hope you share more of it with us as well!! :)
To actually speak to someone who was there to witness the start of it all is incredible!
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I agree, I love hearing about the progression of their design and how it got to where it is today.
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George's father was the majority stock holder in the company and so George was able to experiment with different products , looking for a " home run "The company at that time was what they called a job shop , they would build small runs of spun or stamped parts for various companies and they also produced a few products themselves . When we talk about the progression of the style were really talking more about having access to new tools to make the process faster and more cost efficient. As my source put it , " the tail started wagging the dog " and the company with all stock holders involved had to make a choice , invest serous capital for machinery to run with this idea or not . They took the safe road and subbed out most of the parts to other companies, a wait and see approach . After Georges fathers death he became the majority stock holder and as they say the rest is history. The waiting for George was over :)
By 1955 the only things that Weber were making in house were the Ash pans( the brake pressed aluminum versions ) and vents.
Legs , metal handles , bowls and lids, wheels and tires as well as the porcelain enamel process were all done elsewhere and then assembled at Weber , this process was carried on to Wood Dale until the company could buy the equipment they needed to cut out the middle man as it were.
Edit( The Ranch Type ) it's thought that these were still being spun in house in 55" and not being drawn .
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This all reminds me I have an unwritten interview with one of Weber's early suppliers who helped them transition from spun to stamped kettles. I have it on tape, just need to transcribe. I'll try to get that done in the next week or so.
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Here are a couple interesting examples of rounded utility pans:
Weber Bros Metal Works - this would pre-date 1959
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/slieberman92/IMG_3047_zps0500f1d2.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/slieberman92/media/IMG_3047_zps0500f1d2.jpg.html)
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/slieberman92/UtilityPan_zpsd1e4729c.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/slieberman92/media/UtilityPan_zpsd1e4729c.jpg.html)
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/slieberman92/UtilityPan2_zps0135526f.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/slieberman92/media/UtilityPan2_zps0135526f.jpg.html)
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/slieberman92/WeberBrosChestnut_zps133ad110.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/slieberman92/media/WeberBrosChestnut_zps133ad110.jpg.html)
Snipers 18.5" Sky Blue - one of the oldest kettles we have seen so far (blank lid vent).
http://weberkettleclub.com/blog/2013/12/26/1956-57-sky-blue-18-5-kettle/ (http://weberkettleclub.com/blog/2013/12/26/1956-57-sky-blue-18-5-kettle/)
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/slieberman92/KGrHqVlMFHlsyWzJ3BR8IHcIQ60_57_zps87c96c4c.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/slieberman92/media/KGrHqVlMFHlsyWzJ3BR8IHcIQ60_57_zps87c96c4c.jpg.html)
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All good info guys - hopefully collectively we can finally pin down some exact dates on some of these older WBMW kettles.
There's so much uncertainty about the very early years so the more of the puzzle we can all put together the better. It would be awesome to eventually get hard confirmation of all design tweaks right from the start.
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@Idahawk Great stuff! This most definitely helps to get closer to nail down some dates for some 50s kettles. The wheels and the handles (metal bowl handles/lid handles) being supplied doesn't surprise me. I have seen tool boxes with the exact shape of the old Weber MBH/MLH shape. I know that into the 70s, the half rubber plastic/all plastic wheels were supplied from outside, still are I think? Between your interview and @MartyG 's this is a gold mine of info. :D
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Fascinating. Thanks to all of y'all for collecting this information that would otherwise be lost.
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Q&A topic - Ashpan
Transcript of conversation regarding early ash pans with former employee and son of the president of the company at that time.
I sent him photos and allowed him to study them and then make comment , I'm calling him HK for privacy reasons .
First photo
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/13/05de47053e7ad08e3758a3ef30656e0c.jpg)
HK - this picture of the bottom of a pan ...I don't think we made those , I think that was after they left ..*
HK-Because this is not a formed pan like the aluminum ones in those earlier pictures *
Me - ok
HK- you see what I talking about here ? Rounded corners and its a drawn pan .
Me - like it was pushed out or stamped , you mean ?
HK - Yes
HK - so I don't anything about that laugh .. that was after my time
HK - let me go back to the next one ..
Second photo
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/13/fd709b931b87c8fe02ede6bc3e3312cd.jpg)
HK - laugh - I've never seen anything like that one *
But that's an old aluminum....bottom that we used
Me - did you make those ?
HK- We formed those... That was when it was still in Chicago ..we formed those , it was just an easy form on a press brake .
Me - ok
* earlier pictures - he's referring to several of the old demo cook photos I had sent him for review .
* after they left - here he's referring to when George along with the majority of stock in the company moved to Wood Dale , HKs father who was president and a minority stock holder at this time made a deal with George to purchase the job shop and the contracts they had , a few short years later HK became president of that company and he relocated it .
* Here he's referring to looking at the repair done to my WBMW.
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Great post Ida!!
I think some of these details conflict with other factoids that were already pretty solid.
Craig and the rest of the age team will have a fun time figuring all of this out, haha :)
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Thanks Idahawk!
So...
"...I don't think we made those , I think that was after they left .."
Does that make the rounded ones a little newer than the formed (straight) ones?
Or...
The round ones were possibly "aftermarket"?
I'm enjoying this thread!
Thanks!
Oh Yeah, go Pack! :o ;) ;D
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Thanks Idahawk!
So...
"...I don't think we made those , I think that was after they left .."
Does that make the rounded ones a little newer than the formed (straight) ones?
Or...
The round ones were possibly "aftermarket"?
I'm enjoying this thread!
Thanks!
Oh Yeah, go Pack! :o ;) ;D
not calling the man's recollection crap here... BUT
It could mean that the man's memory isn't as good as he thinks it is.
OR
He really didn't pay enough attention to the parts, but he has a memory and his brain simply filled in the gaps. (all of our brains do this)
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or he's right and the rounded off pans are newer...
My grandma's 94 and sharper than me ;)
It would be awesome to finally get to the bottom of this!
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right. i'm not saying that he's wrong.
i'm just saying that i'm taking his recollection with a heavy grain of salt.
we have a lot of data to work through. separating fact from fiction is difficult.
we've literally had countless encounters of failed memory. The guy that sold me the glen blue imperial swears he got it at sears. in 79.
The human brain is dangerous. We only observe a VERY small portion of what's around us. The rest is filled in by the brain.
When it comes to memory recollection, it gets even worse - especially when other emotions like pride, honor, and ego are involved
Unless the guy's job was using the brake press to make the pans, his memory is merely a suggestion.
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I'm older than most of us here, and I can't remember the last time my memory failed. 8)
I would take this guy at face value. If better proof comes along that discounts his recollection we can take it from there, but I for one am not in favor of immediately casting doubt on these sources from the word go. They don't come along very often, and we're lucky to tap their memories when we can. I'm not saying everything he says is indisputable fact, just that we have no good reason NOT to believe him. I'll bet good money that Weber Stephen itself would be hard pressed to establish many comprehensive facts about the early days - other than the scarce verbal histories they've managed to record along the way.
All we need to do is document the conversations we manage to have with guys like HK, and enjoy the mystery that surrounds our hobby like many other hobbyists do. Lets not get all academic about the workings of the human brain - after all, when I founded the WKC in my Pennsylvania garage back in 2010, I was careful not to include too much salt in my diet.
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All the research work is greatly appreciated, guys! It does seem to be impossible to pin down exact-ish dates.
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I'm older than most of us here, and I can't remember the last time my memory failed. 8)
I would take this guy at face value. If better proof comes along that discounts his recollection we can take it from there, but I for one am not in favor of immediately casting doubt on these sources from the word go. They don't come along very often, and we're lucky to tap their memories when we can. I'm not saying everything he says is indisputable fact, just that we have no good reason NOT to believe him. I'll bet good money that Weber Stephen itself would be hard pressed to establish many comprehensive facts about the early days - other than the scarce verbal histories they've managed to record along the way.
All we need to do is document the conversations we manage to have with guys like HK, and enjoy the mystery that surrounds our hobby like many other hobbyists do. Lets not get all academic about the workings of the human brain - after all, when I founded the WKC in my Pennsylvania garage back in 2010, I was careful not to include too much salt in my diet.
I love that memory joke! My dad used to say that :P
Regarding the reasons - we actually DO have some reasons.
If I understand correctly, one of the oldest grills we know about (or at least, a grill we believe to be the oldest) has a pan that is suddenly newer than many other grills.
Craig or Zavod might be able to elaborate a bit, at least I hope so because I'm mostly clueless at this point :P
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and for what its worth - it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong.
it only matters that we get the correct data :)
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Yeah, memory is the second thing to go. I can't remember what the first was.
::)
There's just something about those pans...
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I'm older than most of us here, and I can't remember the last time my memory failed. 8)
I would take this guy at face value. If better proof comes along that discounts his recollection we can take it from there, but I for one am not in favor of immediately casting doubt on these sources from the word go. They don't come along very often, and we're lucky to tap their memories when we can. I'm not saying everything he says is indisputable fact, just that we have no good reason NOT to believe him. I'll bet good money that Weber Stephen itself would be hard pressed to establish many comprehensive facts about the early days - other than the scarce verbal histories they've managed to record along the way.
All we need to do is document the conversations we manage to have with guys like HK, and enjoy the mystery that surrounds our hobby like many other hobbyists do. Lets not get all academic about the workings of the human brain - after all, when I founded the WKC in my Pennsylvania garage back in 2010, I was careful not to include too much salt in my diet.
Well said
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Marty and everyone else...
We are not immediately casting doubt on the source just because it's a 60yr old recollection. There ARE other pieces of information that conflict with what Ida was told.
At this point we simply don't know what is right or wrong. Any 'doubt' that's being cast is simply to prevent this data from being assumed as factual.
This has happened before with the vent words and layouts :)
These conversations with sources involved with Weber are highly respected and, to be honest, fucking awesome. You and Ida are "THE MAN"s for having the ambition and commitment to make these conversations happen.
Our historical research IS academic. Some of us are in constant contact regarding data and digging. This has been going on for more than 2 years and we're all pretty damned proud of what we have. (It'll be up on the site by Spring)
We take it very seriously - it's a passion.
We're striving for quality and accuracy.
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My continuing mission. To explore strange new grills. To seek out new pans and new information. To BOLDY go where no Grillfella has gone before....
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/13/531e7e9c980524d75070da968dc8c30c.jpg)
What goes on in my head when new info comes up...
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/13/ea9334c850acc62a9a9b403803c5d9b2.jpg)
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It's not hard to find the answer to this question, just contact Marty and ask him to ask his source from the Drawing company weber used what year they starting drawing the ash pans ? It's likely they used the same company for the bowls and lids along with the ash pans.
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This has been long running labor of love for me. Dating back to our foster site. The challenge of finding the answers has been part of the fun since hardly anything pre 1979 has been black and white but rather 50 shades of grey (ok pun intended) ;D
As Troy said we will be relaunching the age guide next month. As always the age guide it will be noted as a work in progress. This thread contributes to that work in progress. We will be adding bullet points from the info presented.
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My continuing mission. To explore strange new grills. To seek out new pans and new information. To BOLDY go where no Grillfella has gone before....
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/13/531e7e9c980524d75070da968dc8c30c.jpg)
What goes on in my head when new info comes up...
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/13/ea9334c850acc62a9a9b403803c5d9b2.jpg)
"POST OF THE MONTH"
.....and it's still early in the month !!!!!!
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@dazzo
Yes regardless of what's being said , I feel that the folded ash pans were the first style, I researched this project for about 4 months and already had a theory that the simpler design made the most sense . I believe that they used the folded design and then integrated the new style pan into the mix as soon as the move to Wood Dale became evident. George was going out on his own everything would have needed to be streamlined . I was told that when George left for Wood Dale he only took a couple lathes with him, therefore he would have needed to be supplied from an outside source for the ash pans along with everything else. I also believe that if in 1956 they had already set up and produced the drawn pan that they would have used it and not continued with the hand made folded style for 3-4 more years.
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Someone on here earlier posted the patent schematics for the rounded off triangle pans. I can't find it at the moment but it had a date on it..
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Someone on here earlier posted the patent schematics for the rounded off triangle pans. I can't find it at the moment but it had a date on it..
@Craig
@dazzo Dazzo did. May not be related as the date was November 1963
http://weberkettleclub.com/forums/weber-kettles-accessories/if-there-all-1956s-models-then/msg137854/#msg137854 (http://weberkettleclub.com/forums/weber-kettles-accessories/if-there-all-1956s-models-then/msg137854/#msg137854)
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Thanks Harris and Dazzo. Here it is for this threads purposes...
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/14/785e22049cb504e3b456566e68d1f0a3.jpg)
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(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/14/785e22049cb504e3b456566e68d1f0a3.jpg)
Maybe I'm pointing out the obvious here but did anyone else notice this is actually depicting a hinged leg system? Looks like the front leg disconnected from the bowl and then whole triangle assembly could be folded flat... very cool!
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And I wonder if this Richard Kates fellow is still around! He would be an interesting man to talk to.
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Yeah, that's what buckie pointed out...
http://weberkettleclub.com/forums/weber-kettles-accessories/if-there-all-1956s-models-then/msg137849/#msg137849 (http://weberkettleclub.com/forums/weber-kettles-accessories/if-there-all-1956s-models-then/msg137849/#msg137849)
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Ahh yes, indeed he did! I had just come from that thread so I have no idea how I missed that :o
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That's why I bow down to buckie.
;D
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(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/14/785e22049cb504e3b456566e68d1f0a3.jpg)
Maybe I'm pointing out the obvious here but did anyone else notice this is actually depicting a hinged leg system? Looks like the front leg disconnected from the bowl and then whole triangle assembly could be folded flat... very cool!
Here's the other 2 pages of that thing ?
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/14/2e1df4778735b5c6254addb8841aeb8e.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/14/3393f68312168a927a45c910e4912910.jpg)
Not sure what the point of showing a non Weber grill is , but I'll play along :)
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I bow down to buckie.
Me too...I'm just careful when I do.
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:o
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I don't think the patent is even relevant.
http://www.google.com/patents/US3111337
It's not a Weber Patent.
It's not for the ash pan, it's for a method of attaching foldable legs.
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It's not hard to find the answer to this question, just contact Marty and ask him to ask his source from the Drawing company weber used what year they starting drawing the ash pans ? It's likely they used the same company for the bowls and lids along with the ash pans.
@MartyG ? Or a different Marty?
I doubt we'll get anything more than memory, but its certainly worth a shot.
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How about a early demo picture with the rounded ash pan in it ? Got one of those ?
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This Marty. The guy I met with (as did several other members) and interviewed owned the company that made Weber's first stamped (drawn) kettles around 1954. I'll reach out to see what he may know about the pans.
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(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/01/14/3393f68312168a927a45c910e4912910.jpg)
Not sure what the point of showing a non Weber grill is , but I'll play along :)
I found that stuff looking under Weber patents........surely not something they put out under their name, but perhaps a one off production like the Sears Econo models>>>?
.....or, another possibility might be scooping up patents so they somehow don't later compete>>>?
Also, if you look closely, it's a patent ONLY for the leg system, not necessarily the actual bowl section.....
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Here's the Bluey.........
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd520/1buckie/Cookers%202012/new%20cookers%202013/T2eC16JyEE9s5jDZuiBR8IGkB8Vg60_57.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd520/1buckie/Cookers%202012/new%20cookers%202013/1.jpg)
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I found that stuff looking under Weber patents........surely not something they put out under their name, but perhaps a one off production like the Sears Econo models>>>?
.....or, another possibility might be scooping up patents so they somehow don't later compete>>>?
Also, if you look closely, it's a patent ONLY for the leg system, not necessarily the actual bowl section.....
Yep, there are a few weber patents that list this patent as a citation.
However, patent citations don't imply any usage of design or technology. Citations are supplied by the applicant to help the Patent Trademark Office better understand the application.
It's simply a reference.
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Here's the Bluey.........
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd520/1buckie/Cookers%202012/new%20cookers%202013/T2eC16JyEE9s5jDZuiBR8IGkB8Vg60_57.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd520/1buckie/Cookers%202012/new%20cookers%202013/1.jpg)
Do you have the close up of the top vent?
I believe this top vent is blank or chicago - which makes it older than the wood dales. (or it means that it's a 'special' grill that has been uniquely built or even modified)
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Nope, that's the only pics I have.....as recalled, there wasn't too, too many in the original posting ?
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I sent photos of that blue grill to HK last night and asked specifically about that color , waiting to hear back on that .
He had named 4 colors when I asked him that question in the interview, blue wasn't one he named , but he did talk about "experiments" when we got on that subject , he specifically recalled what he said was a Fire Hydrant yellow with a flat top that his cousin had .
He recalled Black , Black and white spiderweb , Black and yellow spider web and he said they were able to do a run of a Bronze color.
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Picture of the lid vent
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/slieberman92/Sniper_zps560b2f22.jpg) (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/slieberman92/media/Sniper_zps560b2f22.jpg.html)
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I just want to reiterate that all of the great information presented here will be noted in our upcoming revision. Thank you again, idahawk for doing this interview and to HK for your sharing your insights and experiences during your time with Weber Bros Metal Works. :)
I'd also love to hear some more about the demos that you did and how it was spreading the word to those early customers.
:D